Interview with Lee R. Gordon, March 15, 2023

MAYFIELD: Hello, my name is Theresa Mayfield and I'm the local history librarian for Moore Memorial Public Library in Texas City, Texas. We are conducting an interview for our oral history project entitled The African American Experience, Texas City. Today we are talking to Mr. Lee Gordon to learn about him and to discuss events that took place between the years 1950 and 1970.We are conducting this meeting in person at 928 Fifth Avenue, North Texas City, Texas. Today is Wednesday, March 15th, 2023. Good morning, Mr. Gordon.

GORDON: Good morning.

MAYFIELD: Thank you so much for being here today. Um, so I'm going to have you start out. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, starting with your name?

GORDON: Yes.

MAYFIELD: And, uh, where you were born?

GORDON: Right. I'm Lee R. Gordon. I was born December 23rd, 1943, to sharecroppers, Annie and Robert Gordon, in Egypt, Texas. And from 00:01:00there, I moved to Texas City.

MAYFIELD: So, how old were you when you moved to Texas City?

GORDON: I was three years old when I moved to Texas City.

MAYFIELD: And why did your family move to Texas City?

GORDON: Well, they weren't progressing in, uh, where they was at. Because they, as sharecroppers, you know, you had to share the crop that you brought in every year. And they wanted to be productive. So, I guess they sort of ran off from there, you know, (laughs) and moved to Texas City. My daddy got, --well, he, my daddy left first, and he sort of got down there and got stuck, I guess. So, my mom, you know, she got tired of waiting there. She put, picked us up and put us in a bus or whatever it was, and we got down, (Mayfield laughs) we got down there, you know. And my, my daddy was probably running around or 00:02:00doing something. I don't know what he was, but (Gordon, Mayfield laughs) anyway, Mama got him back on track, you know? Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, your father was working here in Texas City?

GORDON: Yes. He was working for Fort Bacon Davis (Ed. note: Ford, Bacon & Davis) or something like that. I remember the name. Cause uh, I tried to say it a few times and, and I said it fast, and they were always laughing because I would have said it and I guess it was something else.

MAYFIELD: Oh, okay.

GORDON: And you know how the guys are. (laughs) They was laughing.

MAYFIELD: Well, could you repeat it slowly? It was called what?

GORDON: Fort Bacon Davis.

MAYFIELD: Fort Bacon Davis. Okay.

GORDON: Yeah. But I call it something else (laughs).

MAYFIELD: Mm, okay (laughs).

GORDON: People just ask me, "Where your daddy work at?" And I say, (nods head). He would laugh. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Kids.

GORDON: Yeah. I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah. I'm, I'm young, you know. What, about three or four years old? I didn't know what I was saying.

MAYFIELD: So, you were three and your parents are now in Texas City. Uh, do you have any brothers or sisters?

GORDON: Yes. Well, they're all deceased, and all my siblings are deceased now. I had a brother that was in Vietnam, and he got hit with Agent Orange. And he also was in that Camp Lejeune thing, you know, that happened a while back? You probably heard about that. They had exposure to some toxic waste in North Carolina.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Yeah. And he died from that with, I think, it must have been kidney cancer because his kidneys shut down on him and he died, you know.

MAYFIELD: Oh, that's a shame. I'm sorry to hear that.

GORDON: Right. And then, and my sister, one of them had diabetes real bad. And she passed away, you know, with that. And then I had a brother, but 00:04:00his name was Alfonso Matthews, you know, he was born out of wedlock. And he died from leukemia. And then my other sister, she had died from cancer, you know. From the, --I think it had something to do with asbestos, because her husband died with asbestosis, you know.

MAYFIELD: Her husband worked with asbestos?

GORDON: Right. He was a merchant Marine.

MAYFIELD: Asbestos. Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Yeah, man, that's what it was. But now, and then everybody, I'm the last one.

MAYFIELD: So, are you the youngest?

GORDON: Yes, I am the youngest.

MAYFIELD: So, give me the names of all of your brothers and sisters in the order.

GORDON: Okay. Alfonso Matthews. Okay. And he was, well, he was the oldest. And then I had Christine and she was second to him, then had Agnes, and 00:05:00then Robert Gordon, Jr. And then me, Lee R. Gordon. And also, I remember one thing, they must had a, --I mean, they really loved Lee, I guess, because they, my brother's name was Robert Lee Gordon. And then I was named Lee R. Gordon, which is Lee Roy Gordon. And I just sort of, I wondered, I said, "Why? What's that fascination with Lee?" You know? (laughs) You know, but I guess it had something to do with General Lee. (laughs) Yeah, something, I don't know.

MAYFIELD: What was your relationship like with your siblings?

GORDON: Oh, we had, I never had any problem with them except for one, my brother, my younger brother who was, who was two years older than me, uh, he used to always mess with me, you know. Until one day he got, he, he'd 00:06:00come over there and I'd gotten older. I was twelve years old when this happened. I still remember that. The last time he messing with me, I threw him down and sat on him, you know, and had his hold, hold his hand. He couldn't get loose. (laughs) and he never bothered me again. No more.

MAYFIELD: It just took one time.

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: That's all. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: What was your family's economic circumstances like?

GORDON: Well, we didn't have much money or nothing, you know. My daddy, he became disabled, and he couldn't work. He'd always tell Mom, "I can work." And every job he got on, he probably lasted there three days and they let him go, you know? Because he was working construction, you know, labor. And, uh, my sisters, uh, my sister Agnes, she's the one that got a job sort of 00:07:00help us too, you know? And because she was working at John Sealy and she brought her check home to help Mom, you know. I remember that very well. And Mom was always trying to tell Daddy said, "You know." said, "Robert, uh, go get your disability." And he didn't know. He would always tell her, "Oh dear, I can work, you know." I remember her exact words, you know. So, he never got his disability until I got out of school.

MAYFIELD: Out of high school?

GORDON: Uh, right. Out of high school.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Did you hold any jobs when you were young?

GORDON: The Town of Country Grill. I worked there for a little while. I don't know, I don't exactly remember exactly how long I worked there. And I also was a bellhop at the Fifth Avenue Hotel. And I worked at, Weingarten and 00:08:00which was here, but they gone now, you know. But at, at should I say, sacking groceries, you know. But I was a young boy then about twelve, thirteen years old. Maybe fourteen, you know? Yeah.

MAYFIELD: You said that you also would sell bottles?

GORDON: Yep.

MAYFIELD: Milk bottles?

GORDON: Yep. I was young then. I was younger, a lot younger then. I was about, I think seven or eight probably. And I would go around and pick up people's (laughs) bottles and stuff like that. And uh, just so happened that one day I was at this lady's house, and I saw a big milk bottle on the porch. So, I went up there and got it coming and go, going away with it. And a dog came out there, a big old collie, and he started growling at me. And a lady came outside because she knew what was going on. I guess she knew. But she came out and then called her dog back. And the dog, like I said, the dog was about as tall as 00:09:00I was.

MAYFIELD: And how tall were you?

GORDON: Oh, shoot, I must have been around about, what, four feet? Maybe? Five, four feet tall, I would say, you know. And the dog was looking at me straight in the eye, you know. And so, you, you better believe I was scared (laughs) you know. And she called him back, you know. It saved me, and I walked away with the, with the big bottle. (laughs) I still remember that you know.

MAYFIELD: Were you able to keep the money that you made with the bottles and other jobs that you had, or did you have to turn some of that money into your mom?

GORDON: No, I, I never turned it in because, um, --the on a job money that when I was working, yeah, I turned that into them. But the, --when I was working, uh, I mean when I was hustling, hustling bottles and stuff like that, I kept that, you know. And I took that and spent it. And then going, --I spent a 00:10:00lot of time going to the swimming pool. I was in the swimming pool every day, you know (laughs).

MAYFIELD: Did you have to pay to go into the swimming pool?

GORDON: A quarter.

MAYFIELD: Okay--

GORDON: --So, you know, now, and that was easy. I gave a quarter. I lived right across the street from the swimming pool, so, you know, I was in there every day, you know? Yeah. I was in the Projects they had over there called Grand Camp. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Grand Camp? Okay. So, what relatives did you have contact with?

GORDON: Well, my sisters and brothers and, and, uh--

MAYFIELD: Aunts, uncles, grandparents--

GORDON: --I had aunts and uncles from La Marque, you know, I had Uncle Ernest, Uncle Java. They'd come by the house every now and then. It wasn't often, you know. And Ernestine, I also had uh Mack Gordon. Uh, and I still got 00:11:00one that's alive right now, that's L. T. Gordon. And we still, we close. We are like brothers, you know.

MAYFIELD: So, you were closer to the Gordon side of the family? Your dad's side of the family?

GORDON: Yes. The reason--

MAYFIELD: --than your mom's?

GORDON: Right. But the reason why, uh, mom's brothers, they never came around except for one, and that was Charlie Foster. He come down, and he came down and stayed with us for a while. And then he left, went back to the country and he died on a horse. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: You mean sitting on a horse? He just died.

GORDON: That's what I heard. That's what they told me. Say, oh, --that's what I was told. So, I don't know, you know. But he was a big one of them. Big strong jokers that looked like Hercules. (laughs) Yeah. Talking about that build too. I mean, gosh, he looked like he could whip a horse. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: What about your grandparents? Did you have any relationships with your grandparents? Did you go visit them--

GORDON: --Only one, only one grandparent. And that was one they called Uncle Ernest. That's the only one I used to, uh, not hold on. No. William Gordon. That's the, --William Gordon was the one that he stayed with us, you know? And so, we had, that's what, that's the only one I had really in a relationship with. Because my daddy and mom took him in, you know, because he could, he ain't had nowhere to go. I think his mother, --his, his wife had died, you know. And I think that was his way out, you know? That's the only reason he stayed there.

MAYFIELD: Did you ever go visit any family members in other towns?

GORDON: Well, I stayed with, um, during the explosion, we had stayed over there at Uncle Java's house in La Marque. And then, I also went to the 00:13:00country, and I never forgot that either. Because they sent me over there, and I had to pick cotton and I sure didn't like that. (laughs) I was about, I guess about six years old, maybe five or six.

MAYFIELD: Did all the family go, or just you?

GORDON: Just me and my brothers. Uh, my brother and my sister, Agnes; it was three of us went. And one time, my mama went with us, but normally they would get, get rid of us on, uh, during the summer. You know, get us out of town. I guess why they would have some peace, I guess. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Where would you stay when you went to pick cotton? What home would you stay at--

GORDON: --Uh, with my uncle and auntie.

MAYFIELD: The ones that moved to La Marque?

GORDON: In, uh, Eagle Lake.

MAYFIELD: Eagle Lake, okay.

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: What were their names?

GORDON: Uh, Uncle Frank and then Uncle, and then Aunt Champy. He used to call her Champy. But I, I, you know, I don't even know her first name. All I 00:14:00knew was Champy, you know.

MAYFIELD: Champy?

GORDON: That's what they called her. Mm-hmm. But she was a, the reason why they called her that, I think it was because she could pick 500 pounds of cotton in a day. I couldn't. I tried to pick it and I, I don't know, I couldn't even pick no more than about ninety something. And I tried to get a hundred pounds. I never could, you know.

MAYFIELD: Did they have their own farm?

GORDON: No. They was picking for some people that owned a cotton field, you know, in Stafford. Stafford, uh, yeah, that's what it was, Stafford, Texas. I remember that much because his mama used to mention it, you know. And my mom came out there and picked cotton one time, one year. Yeah. And see, I got sweating and, uh, matter of fact, uh, a snake was, came by me, mama took a cotton stock and put it up and killed the snake. Beat him with it. (laughs)Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Be careful because some snakes are poisonous, right?

GORDON: Oh yeah. It, it was.

MAYFIELD: Did you ever marry?

GORDON: Yes. Uh, several times. (laughs) That was an escapade right there. You know, first one was Shirley Ford. We was married, um, uh, 1969 or '70? '69. Yeah, '69. And when I went to Vietnam, by the time I got back she had partied down in other words. So, we got a divorce. And after about a, --I forgave her and I went, and we, and we got divorced after about five years, you know.

MAYFIELD: You got divorced after five years?

GORDON: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because I went over there to Germany and she wanted to go, but she didn't want to go when I went. But but, after I got 00:16:00over there, about six months over there, she called me, told about she wanted to come, and I told her no. (laughs) I didn't want to extend, you know, for, you know, another year. Because I would've to extend to another year if she came. And I didn't want to stay over there no longer, you know? So, if you had otherwise, --I was over there on a two-year commitment, but if I had let her come, I'd had to put three years in, you know. And I didn't want that.

MAYFIELD: So, who was your next wife?

MAYFIELD: My next wife was Laura, (Ed. note: Laura is the 3rd wife) and she was from Panama. And we happened to meet in Fort Carson, Colorado. (Ed. 00:17:00Note: Redacted portion of interview for privacy).

MAYFIELD: So, you were married three times?

GORDON: (laughs) Four.

MAYFIELD: Four times.

GORDON: I'm in my fourth marriage right now.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Okay.

MAYFIELD: And who is your, third wife?

GORDON: My third wife was, uh, ain't that something? Marianne? Yeah. Marianne. That's my third wife. (Ed. Note: Marianne is the second wife)

MAYFIELD: And the name of your fourth wife?

GORDON: Uh, Marianne.

MAYFIELD: Fourth wife is also Marianne?

GORDON: No, Mary, Marianne. That's her name.

MAYFIELD: That's the third wife?

GORDON: Uh-huh.

MAYFIELD: What about the fourth wife?

GORDON: The fourth wife is, um, boy, I had so many wives hard to even think about my other wife. (Gordon, Mayfield laugh) Claudette.

MAYFIELD: Claudette?

GORDON: Yes. That's who I'm with now. No, you know, but see, I didn't get married again until the, --after being married in the military, you know. And going through all those wives, the only reason I went through all those wives, because I was trying to find a mother for my child, you know? And, and that's what it was, you know? But some women thought I was 00:18:00probably weak, and they going to try to mess with my child. I said, "Uhn-uh." Just that one tried that. See if you can't accept my child, you can't accept me, you know? That's the way I looked at it, you know?

MAYFIELD: How many children do you have?

GORDON: I got, well, actually I got three that's mine. But I got four in all, you know. And I got one son that's in the military right now. He's a lieutenant colonel.

MAYFIELD: What are your children's names?

GORDON: Uh, one named Tyrick, one, another daughter named Tyrosha. Okay. And then I got Shevy. And her name is spelled, but it's spelled S-h-e-v-o-n-y-e-h. And then I got one called Brittanii.

MAYFIELD: Brittanii?

GORDON: Gordon.

(Editor's note: Redacted portion of interview for privacy).

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, when did you get married to your fourth wife?

GORDON: Uh, in 1990, after I'd gotten out of military. I wasn't doing any, --I wasn't going through that again while I was in the military. I felt like, you know, it's too much to go through. All those wives, you know. (laughs) Oh, it didn't work. It didn't work because I was in the military basically, you know. If he, he, I be, I, I had, I, excuse me for a moment, let me slow down. I, you know, was gone all the time, you know. If I wasn't on a field problem, I was gone here and there, you know. And deployed overseas somewhere. And so, it just got to the point I said, "Well, I'm not doing it again." We was going together for a while though.

MAYFIELD: Did you meet here in Texas City, or--

GORDON: --No, we met in Fort Carson. Hold on, no, Fort Hood. We met at Fort Hood and that's why we, you know, got together basically. But we didn't get married 00:20:00until I got out.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: I wasn't about to do that again until I got out.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Yeah. So.

MAYFIELD: So, where did you live in Texas City when you were growing up? What was your address?

GORDON: Ours, the first address was 109, no, 1-0, 1-0, oh, I'm sorry, 107 9th Street North. (Ed. Note: 109th 7th St. South) And then from there, we moved to 320 9th (St. South).

MAYFIELD: Three twenty-six?

GORDON: Three-twenty. Yeah. 326 Ninth. (Ed. Note: 326 6th Ave North)

MAYFIELD: Sixth Avenue North?

GORDON: Sixth Avenue North. Right. And the last house I was at was, what's that?

MAYFIELD: You have a 320 9th Street?

GORDON: Yes, at 320 9th Street. That's what it is, 320 9th Street.

MAYFIELD: Yeah, we were talking about it.

GORDON: Yeah. I sort of, you know how it is? Like I said, short term memory goes away.

MAYFIELD: You said that one of the houses were haunted?

GORDON: Yes.

MAYFIELD: Which house?

GORDON: That house that I moved in on. Three, 320--(Ed. Note: 326th 6th Ave North)

MAYFIELD: 320 9th Street?

GORDON: 320, wait, wait. 320 Sixth Street. Sixth Street North.

MAYFIELD: 320 Sixth?

GORDON: 326 Sixth. Um.

MAYFIELD: 6th Avenue.

GORDON: Sixth Avenue North. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: That house was haunted?

GORDON: That house was haunted. I remember everything on that one.

MAYFIELD: Why do you think it was haunted?

GORDON: Huh? I'll tell you why. The first thing happened was, I was downstairs, me and my wife was folding up, --she was folding up clothes and I was watching TV. And all of a sudden, a big loud noise, like somebody shooting somebody. And I went upstairs with a machete, because I ain't had no gun at the time. So, I took a machete and went upstairs with it, you know, which was stupid anyway. (laughs) And you know, what am I doing with a machete as a gun. (laughs) But I 00:22:00went upstairs with it, and I went all the way through the house. They had some crawl spaces in that house, and I looked in the crawl spaces and everything, and I saw nothing, you know? And I came on back downstairs, you know. And after I tell her, "I don't know what happened." I said, "I don't know what that noise was", I said, "But it was loud." And she said, "Yeah." I said, "Did", --I said, "Did you hear that?" She said, "Yeah", you know. But, and then after that there, I would go in the kitchen or something with my, --I, and I wasn't, --I had no reason to be suspicious or anything. But I'd go in the kitchen, and I'd be going to do, I, I mean, I'm doing something with my back turned and, and my, my hair would, would stand up on my head roughly. And I felt like somebody was watching me or somebody was there. But then later on, I talked to Ms. 00:23:00Jeffers who owned that house before I moved in, and she told me that her husband had went on a hunting accident and went on to hunting, went out hunting, and he, and he shot himself to death, you know, accidentally. And what it was, he said that he had his weapon and he sort of threw it down and it discharged. And it shot him in the face. Yeah. And he died. So, he was haunting the house.

MAYFIELD: That's who they think was haunting the house?

GORDON: Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Mr. Jeffers?

GORDON: Mr. Jeffers. I really believe it is, it is. I believe in ghosts. And, and the reason why, I seen thing happen and I couldn't explain, you know, uh--

MAYFIELD: In Texas City or another, anything other?

GORDON: In Texas City. What was it? Even right now, tell you, I'm going to tell you something strange. I got a new house, and it built over there across the Loop, Loop 197. (Ed. Note: 647 29th Ave N)] And at night sometimes I'd see something moving on my side of the bed. Not my wife's side of the bed, but her, --but my side of the bed. And it'll be, --it's like it's checkered, you know? You ever see, --let's see if you got anything like that. Uh--

MAYFIELD: Checkered?

GORDON: No. The, that's white. It's white and it is moving. It is clear and see-through like this. But it's um. You, you see them globes that they make, you know. I don't think I see nothing in here. But anyway, you can see it and it's 00:25:00moving. And when I got up, when I get up and move, it moves, you know? And I wonder, I said, "Gosh", I said, "This must be a ghost. But I can't understand why a ghost would be there". But then again, I think about the possibility. I said, "It could be my mom. Because she lives in the house", you know? I said, "Yeah." And then there's possibility that they had a old graveyard there. What I understand, they had a graveyard where I'm living at right now. And they, and they took it up.

MAYFIELD: So, there was a graveyard on the property that you live right now?

GORDON: No, but, but it was grave --the graveyards was there, and they moved it.

MAYFIELD: Okay. So, there was a graveyard--

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: --on the property that you have right now.

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: But they moved it.

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: Do you remember the name of the cemetery?

GORDON: No, I didn't--. See, I never moved, I never went over that area. You 00:26:00know. But, uh, what it was, they said that it wasn't, it was not, it was an old graveyard. Well, they had plenty of people without markers. Without markers, you know, and they was over there and that's what I remember. That's what they told me. But I didn't know until they had built a house and I moved in it; you know. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: So, what was the longest address that you lived in?

GORDON: The longest address I live in, the one I'm in right now.

MAYFIELD: And what is that address?

GORDON: 647 29th Avenue North.

MAYFIELD: And what house did you have before you went into the military? What house did you live in?

GORDON: I lived in the Projects. Over there at, uh, that Grand Camp they called it.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: So, it is not really the name of a neighborhood, but it's just the 00:27:00name of the building, the project building that you were living in, right?

GORDON: Oh, that's, uh, it's the building, I mean, the place name is really Grand Camp. It's the, --we called it the Projects. Because that's what it was, you know. They moved us over there because we was poor, you know. But you know, at the time when you were young, you don't know you're poor. I didn't know, you know, I was poor. I never knew that until later on, you know?

MAYFIELD: You always felt like you had enough of everything.

GORDON: I felt like I had everything that everybody else had, you know. And coming up when you didn't know you was poor, you, I mean, if you don't know you're poor, then it don't hurt you, you know. It don't harm you, in other words. And a lot of people came out of the Projects, and they'd done very well, you know. And then there are some over there, you know, that didn't make it. And then there were some, some that had it all when they was young and they did 00:28:00nothing but become drug addicts, because they were so satisfied with what they had already; what their parents had acquired, you know? But I was not like that because I had desire and I wanted things, because of the fact that I didn't have it when I was young. See? So, that was the difference. So, I had desire for, to do better, you know.

MAYFIELD: What was the racial and I guess, economic makeup of your neighborhood?

GORDON: Mostly Black. We didn't have, uh, I don't remember seeing any Hispanics over there. All I saw was Black people over in the area. No, that was it.

MAYFIELD: Did your neighbors have any social events together?

GORDON: No. We, what I, the kids did, we, we played basketball together. We'd go to swimming pool you know, and stuff like that. Matter of fact, we played sandlot football out there in the Projects too, because they had a big old space, open space out there. So, we played football.

MAYFIELD: Did you have during holidays, did the neighborhoods get together, say for like 4th of July or Memorial Day weekend or anything like that?

GORDON: No, we didn't do that. We went, --we did go to the pool, you know what I mean? That's about it. Oh, we had a, --I remember now, one thing we had to, we'd go, --they had a, Mr. Elmore, I never forgot his name either. We, --he come by, and he was selling watermelons in the truck. And he'd make us little, little boys, we got there, we had to fight each other in order to, to get a watermelon. (laughs) So, we'd be out there fighting and boxing and stuff, trying to, you know, whoop each other. And I got about two or three watermelons. (Gordon, Mayfield laughs) I can tell you. And, but it was, --that was the 00:30:00neighborhood. But you know, we, --I guess I was a sort of bully anyway, like the fight anyway, at the time. You know, but then that changed later on when I got hit in the side of the head with a stick. I told you about that.

MAYFIELD: You got hit in the head with a stick. What happened?

GORDON: With a stick. You wonder, um, well, what happened? We used to go and make a stick horse. We called it a stick horse. And we'd get all kind of material, you know, to make a horse face and draw a horse cardboard and make it a head on the horse and everything. And anyway, we was out there making a horse, getting the horse and tearing the wood, the sticks off the box that had bicycles in it, you know. Well, while I was doing that, one guy sneaked up 00:31:00behind me and he, and well, and hit me with a stick. And my brother was there too. He didn't do nothing about it, but he hit me beside the head with a stick. And--

MAYFIELD: Why did he hit you with his stick?

GORDON: Because I, --he was one of the ones I used to chase, (laughs) and he saw a way, an opportunity to, to get even, I guess. So, he sneaked up and hit me with that stick and it sort of knocked me senseless for a little while, but it didn't knock me out. But it messed with me mentally, because I had amnesia for a while, and it messed up my study. You know, I used to, --I was a straight A student for a while, but then they hit me with that stick. I had trouble in school later on.

MAYFIELD: It kind of rattled your brain a little?

GORDON: Yes, mm-hmm. It rattled it for a good time, too. Until I, until I went in the military. It sure did. It sort of dumbfounded me. In other words, it made 00:32:00me dumbfounded. In other words, I, --stuff I knew I had lost it because I was good at algebra and all that stuff and then all of a sudden, I couldn't do it no more. You know? So, yeah, that was kind of rough for me because I didn't understand this and didn't understand that anymore. But later on, I got it back, you know. After a while, you know. It took a while to, you know.

MAYFIELD: So, where did you go to school?

GORDON: Booker T. Washington in Texas City. Twelve years there.

MAYFIELD: What grade did you start school?

GORDON: First grade. But actually, I had a kindergarten, (teacher) you know. And from kindergarten to first grade and I was already reading when I got in school. I was reading already. They was teaching my, --the other kids how to read and I already read good (laughs), you know.

MAYFIELD: Wow. So, who taught you how to read?

GORDON: I learned in kindergarten. That's, I-- remember what her name was, Ms. king.

MAYFIELD: Ms. King?

GORDON: Right. Her name was Ms. King. Yeah, she, Alfred King. That's her name.

MAYFIELD: Alfred?

GORDON: Yeah. She taught us how to read and write and everything.

MAYFIELD: In kindergarten?

GORDON: In kindergarten.

MAYFIELD: And was that here in Texas City?

GORDON: Yes, in Texas City.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: And what year did you graduate from Texas City High School or not Texas City High School. I mean Booker T. Washington --

GORDON: -- Well, 1962, that's when it was. I graduated in 1962. I guess they, --I can say they sort of put me out.

MAYFIELD: They put you out?

GORDON: Yes, sir. Hey, and the reason why, because I was real good at basketball and football and I ran track too, you know. But like I say, they, because I was good in, --I excelled in basketball, you know. And I had a scholarship for 00:34:00Prairie View to go, but I didn't go because I didn't feel like my parents wasn't--, you know, needed me more. I thought they needed me more. To work, you know? So.

MAYFIELD: So, you wanted to work so that you could help support your family?

GORDON: Yes. That's what happened because they, they wanted me, told me, go in the military. They didn't want me to go to school either. I can see that. You know.

MAYFIELD: They didn't want you to go into the military?

GORDON: They didn't want me to go to school.

MAYFIELD: Oh, so they were okay with you going into the military?

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: But they didn't want you to go to school.

GORDON: Right. Yeah, they wanted me to go to, and then they had, --Vietnam was going on then, and I went to Vietnam, too. But like I say, uh, they wanted me to be able to help support them, you know? And I know that, you know, my mom sort of told me. Said, "You got", --she showed me a letter where they had sent a letter for me to go, you know, to come to the Army and she had it in her hand. 00:35:00See, she looking at instant money, I guess, (laughing) you know. But then anyway, what you can expect, their people, you know, sharecroppers, they didn't value school. You know, they didn't know nothing about, --they didn't know school, what school could do. They didn't know if I might have went on to become a professional basketball player or not, you know. They was thinking about now, you know. So, I understood that, you know. And I never got mad at them or angry about it, you know? I said, well, it's one of those things, you know. My brother, he played football, but he didn't like playing football. And he didn't want to play basketball, but he played. But he could. He was not like me. I could shoot the ball and it was going to go in, you know.

MAYFIELD: What brother was that?

GORDON: Uh, Robert. Robert Gordon. Yeah. When I shoot the ball, it was going in. And that's all there was to it, you know. (laughs) I had that skill. God gave it 00:36:00to me. I'm sure, you know. But anyway.

MAYFIELD: So, who was your favorite teachers in school?

GORDON: Well, my favorite teacher was Ms. Illbeck.

MAYFIELD: Ms. Illbeck.

GORDON: Ms. Illbeck, you know, the fifth-grade teacher? Yeah. When she, --ah she was, she was the one that wondered what had happened to me. You know, when I got hit the side of the head with that stick, you know? And she even asked me, she said, "What's going on? What, what happened to you? Why you, why you having trouble with this, with this, uh, math problem now?" You know? And I didn't, couldn't tell her. I said, "I don't know." You know, I didn't tell her I got hit the side of the head with a stick. I didn't know to tell her, you know, that I, you know, somebody hit me with a stick. I never thought about it, you know? Well, (laughs) so, I went through school all them years, you know, without 00:37:00even telling anybody about it.

MAYFIELD: So, it was fifth grade that you got hit?

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: And so, you had to go the rest of the, the school--

GORDON: Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: --your time at school, maybe having some problems.

GORDON: Right. With my work.

MAYFIELD: With your work. Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Well, did you have any favorite classes in school?

GORDON: Favorite what now?

MAYFIELD: Classes.

GORDON: My favorite class was math. And when I, that's what I was really good at. But then, that got to, so it wasn't, I didn't have a favorite class, class after that. I didn't have a favorite, but I was, you know, I, my memory was pretty good when it came to certain things I was taught. But I didn't really gain anything back until I got in the military. It seemed like it healed as part of my brain healed. And like right now, it's all here now, you know? But before that, you know, I had problems. That's like when I was even in 00:38:00the military, when I was in there they, would have some tests and I would excel, you know. Otherwise, I'd make a hundred percent, while everybody else making grades less than me. And I had a God-given gift and I know that already, you know. But, I had, --it had been, you know, stifled because of the fact that I got hit with that stick. You know, that's where--

MAYFIELD: --That changed the trajectory.

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: I guess.

GORDON: It did, you know? Because I used to be the kind of person that was always experimenting. (laughs) I remember when, when I was a little boy, I took my mama's, uh, she had all the hair grease stuff, you know, the, to make hair grease. She--

MAYFIELD: Oh, hair grease.

GORDON: Yeah, Uh-huh. She had a lot of stuff, you had concoction she had to put together. I'd take that and try to and try to find out what it would do. I would mix it up with, with this and that and everything else. I was going to be a 00:39:00scientist probably, you know. But when I got hit side the head with that stick, that changed it.

MAYFIELD: Did you not have an interest in doing anything like that?

GORDON: I didn't have no interest. I had an interest in it at first. Because I remember when my brother, for Christmas, one day one year, we were little boys, and he got a, --I got a, what you call it, a machine gun that shoot flames. And my brother had got a train or something, a train. I want to know what made it go. So, I told him (laughs) take it apart. And trying to find out what made it move, you know. And, you know, I couldn't put it back together. So, I got a whack for that. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Got in trouble for destroying your brother's toy. (laughs)

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, what did you do after school?

GORDON: You mean during, uh, during regular school--

MAYFIELD: --Mm-hmm. Did you have anything that you did after school?

GORDON: Well, I was, I played, uh, --shot marbles and I was shooting marbles and stuff. And play Saturday night football, and that's about it, you know? And I was on my knees all the time, wearing out my pants. (laughs) Until Mama got a hold to it and said, "Uhn-uh." And she'd make me wear the same pants the next day to school, you know? So, she, well, when I come home, I had to pull them pants off and put on some other pants, you know, that I don't wear to school. So, I had another set of clothes that I could play in.

MAYFIELD: She was teaching you a lesson.

GORDON: Oh, yeah.

MAYFIELD: Not to play in your school clothes.

GORDON: Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Did anyone ever watch you after school?

GORDON: No. No. We never had to worry about that kind of stuff. I, matter of 00:41:00fact, I could have gotten in a whole bunch of trouble. I look back at that, I say, I was a little boy walking around here taking people's bottles. And taking their milk bottles and their soda bottles and I take it and go sell them to the store, you know? And the milk, the little, --the soda bottle was, I think it was a two cents, you know. And the milk bottles was thirty cents, but I remember it wasn't twenty percent. It was thirty cents. I was, and I definitely go take it over there and get those. That's, --I preferred those. Otherwise, just like when that dog came out there, that milk bottle. (laughs) I wasn't putting that bottle back. (laughs)I looked back at it, I said, "I was going to take that."

MAYFIELD: You're keeping that bottle.

GORDON: I kept that bottle. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: So, you had opportunity to go to Prairie View?

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Did you have other college aspirations?

GORDON: Well, I went to college after I got out of the military, you know. And the only, and the reason why, I thought I needed to go somewhere, you know, and expand my knowledge, you know. But --and I graduated there with an associate degree in drug abuse and stuff like that --

MAYFIELD: --Like a counselor for drug?

GORDON: Psychology. Yeah?

MAYFIELD: Wait, was it a, a degree in psychology or, or for counseling in drug abuse?

GORDON: It's for counseling, drug abuse. But I call it psychology. Because we, --you have to use psychology to talk to people. You have to use; you have to wake them up. Wake up there, you know. They, --in other words, when they get on drugs, you know, you have to wake their mind up and let them know what they're doing wrong, because they don't realize what they're doing wrong. And as long as 00:43:00you don't wake them up, they, they never going to recover, you know. That mind, that one part of that mind is just, you know, inactive, you know. So that's why we do that, you know?

MAYFIELD: And that was the career that you had?

GORDON: Yes. Well, I had that career, uh, when I got out of the military. But then I also, --I turned that loose later on and I went to work at Harris County in juvenile probation. I went up there and worked, you know? And we motivated some of those kids, you know, that was in, on drugs and stuff, and also in jail. So, I spent a lot of time, you know, helping them out.

MAYFIELD: Still working with maybe drugs, but also now you're working with kids?

GORDON: Right. And a lot of them came back over there and told me "Thank you," you know? Yeah. They, you know, because I even had some adults to tell me "Thank 00:44:00you," you know. And they're still, they're still dry; in other words, they're not using anymore, you know. And uh, kids that came back and talked to me too, you know.

MAYFIELD: Who were your best friends growing up?

GORDON: My best friend was, um, --I had one we called Charles Johnson, and I also had Albert Tolden. That was my best friends. We went a long way back. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: What kind of things did you guys do together? I mean, you mentioned that you--

GORDON: Dancing.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Uh-huh. We, that was the main thing was dancing and chasing girls. (Gorden, Mayfield laughs) That's what, that's what we done, you know. And, uh we'd go to the beach out there in Galveston, and on The Down Beat out there. And we'd be out there dancing and, I mean, we're just having a good time. You know?

MAYFIELD: You had a bike box also where --

GORDON: Oh, oh, oh, oh. Playing horse. In other words, we had, --we'd make us, but that's when we was young. I mean very young. I mean, I must have been about this tall and we was getting stick horse. We making stick horses and stuff, you know, we had to. We, you know, we didn't have money and stuff to go buy this and that, so, we had to sort of make our own stuff, you know? So, if you had to have, use your brain, you know, to create things, you know. So, what happened, we take the boxes from the box bikes. They had the big, you know, the big bikes in them, you know, in other words. And we'd take those boxes, and we'd 00:46:00make them, we'd make a, --we, we called it a tank. And we'd run and we'd take it and go through the weeds, rolling over the grass, in other words, in a sense, and calling it a tank, you know? And we knocked the weeds down, going through the rolling through there (high grass) and playing army, in other words, you know?

MAYFIELD: Oh, army. (laughs)

GORDON: Yeah, we played army. Yeah. We was playing army, in other words. Rolling and tanks through the weeds. Now, we could have got bit by snakes and probably everything else because we didn't think about snakes. Didn't think about anything, you know, but loading that tank, we had a good time.

MAYFIELD: So, you seemed very creative. You found creative ways to have fun.

GORDON: Oh, yeah. And yes, yes. I mean, and not only that, we played Indians, too. We pulled up those stalks in the, --they had some weeds that grew up and 00:47:00they had, they was kind of strong, had them long sticks on them, you know. And it was straw, it was strong and it had the root was stuck in the ground, you know, stuck in there pretty good. We pull them up, shave off the stuff off of it, and, and make a, an arrow out of it. And then not only that, the ones that was broke off, we take a soda pop bottle. Yeah. Those, those old, those metal ones, the one that have--

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: And we'd bend that over and make a arrow out of it. It'd be the point for us to shoot, you know? But that was, that would be the, that would be the point, you know, part and we shoot it at each other.

MAYFIELD: All right. That seems a little dangerous.

GORDON: It was. (Mayfield laughs) And, and the thing was, we did that, and we played war. We had war, but we played at, and we shoot at each other. I mean, 00:48:00that's what happened. Nobody never got hit. We was lucky because when --God took care of us. I'm telling you right now, because we were, we could shoot. I mean, I took that same arrow and I take it and shoot birds out of the tree, you know. I hit them; you know? And, and I guess we just, --I don't know, when you, a little kid, you, you're pretty accurate as a little kid, you know. I think, you know.

MAYFIELD: But you didn't hit each other?

GORDON: No, we didn't hit each other.

MAYFIELD: You're so lucky.

GORDON: We hit birds though.

MAYFIELD: Mm. Birds are a lot smaller, too.

GORDON: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, and then you went into the military.

GORDON: Pardon?

MAYFIELD: You played Indians, and you know, Army, but then you went into the military.

GORDON: Yeah. Right. Right. Then I went into the military. (Mayfield laughs) Yeah. I always was, I was inquisitive about military, anyway, when I went in. I wanted to know what military life was like, you know? So, that was--.

MAYFIELD: What was it like?

GORDON: Pardon?

MAYFIELD: What was it like?

GORDON: Well, it was educational. I'll tell you that right now. You know, you 00:49:00think you know a lot when you going in there already, but when you get in there, you find out you don't know nothing, you know. When I learned about guns, you know, and all kind of weapons, --and I mean, I learned about how to, to plot on a map, you know. How to, --where I'm going to. I know. You can't get me lost; you know? Okay. Because I, hey, I know that map, you know. No way. And then on top of that we'd go and set up out there in the, in the field. And we played army again. Like you said, we played the army. We played, you know, we were shooting at each other, but we didn't really shoot at each other. We had blanks, you know.

MAYFIELD: Real guns, but blanks.

GORDON: Right. Blank, you know, with an adapter on it to make sure you wasn't 00:50:00going shoot nobody. Because that adapter, if you even got a live round in there, it was not going to, it was going to shoot, but it wasn't going to hit nobody, because it would, would hit that adapter first. Okay. But we had a, --I had a good time. You know, I really enjoyed the military to tell you the truth. And I, when I got out, I was ready to go because I'd say I had enough, you know.

MAYFIELD: How long were you in altogether?

GORDON: I was in altogether, uh, twenty-three years. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: That's a pretty long time.

GORDON: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Twenty-three years. And you know, I learned a lot. I, --to tell you the truth, I learned how to improvise. You know, things, you know, that I don't have, you know. I know how to do that. I mean, I can think of a lot of things to do with some children even, you know. Because, you know, I learned how to tie knots and how to do everything. I mean, I know I took judo, you know. And 00:51:00I learned that too, you know. And my brother, he took up judo, too, as well. And you know, so, and that's one of the reasons why I took it, because he went in before me, and he was in the Navy. And, um, yeah, he came back and was teaching me points of it. So, when I got in, --I was, --I started, "Well, I'm going to learn too." I remember when I was in basic training, I still think about that. Yeah. They had a big guy in there and when I first came in, and he was a big joker, about 300 pounds. And he going, --and since I was new, he going to scare me. In other words, he going to try to, you know, and he came over there and grabbed me and I threw him all over the place. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: He was trying to intimidate you?

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: But you took care of business. (laughs)

GORDON: Right. And I took care of business. (laughs) Yeah. And after that, there, you know, man, we became good friends. (laughs) He knew not to mess with me, you know? But I wasn't the type of people, --I wasn't, I weren't, --after I had got hit in the head with that stick, I weren't the type of person that would bully nobody. I weren't, I was the kind that would take, --would jump on the bully. That's the kind I was, yeah, you know, later.

MAYFIELD: The stick knocked the bully out of you.

GORDON: Yeah. It sure did. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Did you see movies in Texas City? Where, did you ever go to movies?

GORDON: Oh, yes. Went to the movies in Texas City. They had the Tradewind Theater.

MAYFIELD: Oh, is that the drive-in?

GORDON: Well, they had a, --was there a drive-in, too. I went to that one, too. Yeah. But I also went with one, --that was it, the Showboat. We had another one 00:53:00over there on--

MAYFIELD: -- he Texas Theater?

GORDON: I think so. Maybe so. I forgot the name of it now. It been so long, like I said. But we used to go there, too. And you know, we had, I--

MAYFIELD: --How much were tickets for the movie?

GORDON: I think it was about twenty-five cents. Ten cents at first. Ten cents, and then went from ten to twenty-five and kept going up. Sometimes I was, --I didn't want to pay (laughs). So, I'd go in there and the first little time we were peeping in there and seeing if that lady was, you know, got her head turned, looking up there. And then we'd run up them stairs right quick. Jumping, jumping up them stairs.

MAYFIELD: You'd sneak upstairs when the lady had her head turned?

GORDON: Yep. Yep. And I never got caught.

MAYFIELD: Again, you're lucky, right?

GORDON: Yeah. Yeah. I was quick, too, (laughs) when it came to going up those 00:54:00steps. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: What were your favorite movies?

GORDON: Well, I used to love to go watch people like Tarzan and, uh. that, that was my favorite movie. I can tell you right now. Tarzan was my favorite movie. Superman, you know? Yeah. And, uh, what else was it? And I think those were about the movies I'd like to go see then back in the day. And Tarzan and Superman. Whenever they showed that, I was there, you know? Yeah. And I think it was the fact that I looked at certain things that I knew I couldn't do, you know. I said, "I can't fly. I can't do this and I can't do that." And I always looked, --wanted to go watch those kinds of movies. But as far as something that was down to earth, I didn't want to go see it. No.

MAYFIELD: Not that interesting?

GORDON: No. Mm-hmm. Fiction was well, was more for me.

MAYFIELD: More interesting?

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: So, were there any spots in Texas City that you noticed where folks 00:55:00would gather to talk about politics or just, you know, community discussions or, you know, places that people would gather, adults would gather when you were young?

GORDON: Church.

MAYFIELD: Church for certain?

GORDON: Right. Church would be one of those, you know, people would go. That's where we had most of the talks was in, in the church house about things, you know, that was going on in the neighborhood and everything else. But I can't remember any other place that.

MAYFIELD: What about the barbershops? Did you notice?

GORDON: Well, people talked in the barbershop, but it was not a large gathering, you know. You only had a few little things in the barber shop. But they didn't talk a lot in barber, in the barbershop. Not that I know of.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: It may bring up something small and, and that's where we'd throw it away.

MAYFIELD: Well, you mentioned church. Where did you attend Church?

GORDON: Barbour's Chapel. Uh-huh. I still go there right now. Came back, I go back there still.

MAYFIELD: What is the address of Barbour's Chapel?

GORDON: Uh, boy, right now? (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Was it always in the same spot?

GORDON: No, no. They moved over in La Marque and, uh, it's on, let's see, Texas Avenue. Yeah, it's on Texas Avenue. But it's in La Marque. You have to cross that track, you know, and go down, I don't know, about a mile down. About a mile, maybe two miles down the road.

MAYFIELD: Where was it located at the first location?

GORDON: It was located in, on, uh, I'm trying to think. Sixth Street. No, I'm sorry. Dang. Why? Let's see. It was located on Ninth Street. Ninth Street and 00:57:00uh, Fourth Avenue? Ninth Street and Fourth Avenue. Yeah. That's where it was located at. And, uh, yep. (Ed. Note: Gordon clarifies it was on 8th Street and 4th Ave South)

MAYFIELD: Did the church have a big influence on your family or your community?

GORDON: I would think so, because my mom made sure I go to church and made sure I go to Sunday school, too. I had to go to Sunday school in the morning. I mean, I, she made us go. We ain't had no choice, you know? And even though she didn't go, but we had to go.

MAYFIELD: So, your mom didn't go to church, but she made sure that you went to church?

GORDON: Oh, my mom went to church.

MAYFIELD: Oh.

GORDON: But, but she came later, you know, to church. And if I hadn't went to Sunday school, but then I, sometimes I played hooky for my Sunday school. I tell 00:58:00you the truth, she didn't know it. She never knew it. I never told her even (laughs)

MAYFIELD: So, you had Sunday school first and then church afterwards.

GORDON: Right.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Mm-hmm. But I went few times, and the other times I would go down to the beer joint or somewhere, you know. But I didn't drink beer, you know. I didn't drink.

MAYFIELD: Wait, how old were you, at that time?

GORDON: About twelve, thirteen.

MAYFIELD: Oh, my goodness.

GORDON: Huh.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Yeah. But anyway, what it was, was this here. She'd make me go to Sunday school and I didn't really want to go to Sunday school, but I went. And then some days I would go down to the joints just because I didn't want to, you know, didn't want to go to Sunday school. But I didn't go, if I went to the joint. I was only drinking soda.

MAYFIELD: What was the name of the place that you'd go to?

GORDON: Oh, you mean, uh, the, the, --

MAYFIELD: The joint that you would get your soda?

GORDON: Uh, Wessey Mae's, they used call one of them places we called Wessey Mae's.

MAYFIELD: Wes M. May's?

GORDON: Wes, Wessey Mae's.

MAYFIELD: Wessey Mae's?

GORDON: Uh-huh, that's what we used to call it. And then they had one called, um, what they call it, Durgan's. Then they had another one. Boy, you know, it's kind of hard to remember those names, now. But anyway, I, the one I was going to was Wessey Mae's. That's where I would go over there and get me a soda. But I remember my mom taking me to one of them joints. I still think about that every now and then. I'd have to laugh. She took me to Durgan's one time.

MAYFIELD: Durgan's or Duggans?

GORDON: Durgan's. D U R G E R N, I guess they call it Durgan's.

MAYFIELD: Durgan's. Okay.

GORDON: I never spelled it, so I don't know.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Really how it's spelled. But I went over there with her. I was about 01:00:00five years old. I had never, --I never forgot that she took me in there and she bought a beer for herself, and she bought a beer for me. Yeah. And then back in the day, they didn't care about what you done. So, I sit down there, and the beer came, and she got hers, and then I got mine. But I didn't know that it was beer, so I took it up and was going to drink it. And boy, I took a swig and I just spit it out, you know? And she said, "What's the matter?" I said, "I don't like this." You know? So, she ordered me a soda pop. You know, I went and got that. But she broke me of being an alcoholic a long time ago. When she done that, when I was a little kid, I didn't want, --I didn't drink again until I turned nineteen. I didn't have no alcohol in me until I turned nineteen 01:01:00years old.

MAYFIELD: You think she did that on purpose?

GORDON: I don't know. I wondered about it, you know, but I, it worked. But my brother, now.

MAYFIELD: It didn't work on your brother?

GORDON: Didn't work on him. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Oh no. (laughs)

GORDON: He was drinking. He was getting drunk, and he was a kid, you know. Yeah, but me, uhn-uh. I didn't --I didn't like alcohol. I don't like alcohol, right now, today. I don't drink. Mm-hmm. I just quit drinking. I mean, I didn't want to drink after I got some beer and stuff at nineteen. I didn't, --I never enjoyed it, you know, I never did. I drank to socialize a lot of times, but I never liked alcohol, you know?

MAYFIELD: So, you kind of stayed away from it after a while.

GORDON: That's right.

MAYFIELD: So, was there a memorable pastor who was --who you really had a lot of 01:02:00respect for; who had a lot of influence on you?

GORDON: No. Well, Reverend Scott, you know. He was a nice pastor. He talked to you; you know. And, um, but as far as one that I had a relationship with, nah, not really. I didn't. But the one that I got now, you know, we talk, you know. I guess because I'm older now and you know, and--

MAYFIELD: -- You're in a different place.

GORDON: Right? Yeah. You know.

MAYFIELD: Were there any activities or social functions that, you know the church had for your, for all the kids?

GORDON: Yeah. They had BYU they call it BYU. (Ed. note: BYPU -- Baptist Young Peoples Union). And also, they have, --they'd be playing games out there like hopscotch and baseball and softball and not really baseball, softball and, uh, 01:03:00what else? Running, racing.

MAYFIELD: So, the church organized social events?

GORDON: Yes. Uh-huh. They have them out there. Let them, let kids enjoy themselves, you know. And they have tubs full of apples and stuff, like they have putting them and then with the water in it and they got to get it, you know? Mm-hmm. And all that stuff. They done all that.

MAYFIELD: What about any kind of official programs? Did your church have anything churches related other than BYU? You said--

GORDON: --Well, we talk about, we'd have, uh. We'd talk about what's going on in society, you know. I mean, like problems like that. We like things we don't like; we discuss it, you know. But as far as social events, they had, what? 01:04:00Yeah, they did play basketball. That was a social event. And football and stuff like that. They let them have it if they want to play it now. But as far as discussing too much stuff in depth, we didn't. They didn't do that, you know?

MAYFIELD: Did you--

GORDON: --I didn't.

MAYFIELD: Did all of your friends go to the same church as you or did they go to different churches?

GORDON: Well, they go to different churches right now.

MAYFIELD: Well, back then, they all went to the church that you went to, your friends? Or did they all go to different churches?

GORDON: They went to different churches, I think. Because I looked back at it. Albert didn't go to church with me, and Charles Johnson didn't go to church with me, either. So, no, we went in different churches.

MAYFIELD: Did you ever go to the--

GORDON: --We just were friends, you know. Because we, we lived in the neighborhood. We lived in each other --in the neighborhood. So, we was friends, and we both was going at the Projects, you know.

MAYFIELD: Did you ever go to their church?

GORDON: No. No. I, I never. Oh yeah. Well, lately I have.

MAYFIELD: Back then, though. Back then.

GORDON: No, no. No. Matter of fact, we, we never went to anybody else's church but ours, you know. It is like more like a ownership, I don't know. We just didn't feel like we should patronize another person's church and I don't know why. It was like "This is my area and that's your area." And that's what it was, basically, you know. Because I didn't want to go to nobody else's church anyway. I never thought about going to nobody else's church when I was young. But now I think about it, you know? But that thought never even crossed my mind, you know? I guess it didn't cross theirs either. (laughs) Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, um what about transportation in your family? Who had the car?

GORDON: Huh? Boy, you made me, --you got me there. I'm going to tell you as far as, a car, when I was coming up, there was no cars in my household. My mama and daddy didn't have a car. That was, no, --there was no car. I mean, you know.

MAYFIELD: When did you get a car?

GORDON: I got a car when I was nineteen. I was nineteen years old when I bought my first car.

MAYFIELD: What kind of car?

GORDON: It was a '55 Chevrolet, un-huh back in the day. I don't what, what year was that I bought it? Probably about '69 (Ed. Note: Correction'6). No, it was earlier than that. About '67, '66. (Ed. Note: '64) But anyway, it was, but it 01:07:00was a '55 Chevrolet. And what happened was, I was, --I didn't have it long because what happened, the engine went bad on it. And I got another engine put in there, and next thing you know, I wrecked it. (laughs) Hey, first time, first car. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: So, you didn't have it for a very long.

GORDON: Yeah, no.

MAYFIELD: How long did you have it for?

GORDON: Huh?

MAYFIELD: How long did you have it?

GORDON: I'd say a good, a good two months. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Oh, my goodness. (laughs) Okay.

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Well, if a car broke down like you had in an accident, where would you take a car--

GORDON: -- Huh? That problem, it didn't really break down. I had a wreck.

MAYFIELD: No, you had, --I know, but in this case, if you had a wreck. So, if something happened to a car, where would you take it to get it fixed?

GORDON: I didn't even know to tell you. But I, --now think about it, that was my 01:08:00first car. I knew nothing about the cars. I looked back at it. My mama and daddy never had a car. And I was young with a car. And, and this, --the stuff that I did have done with that car, I would look back at, "That was really stupid", you know? I, what it was, I didn't know how to turn the heater on (laughs).

MAYFIELD: Well, how did your parents get around?

GORDON: They caught cabs and stuff, you know.

MAYFIELD: Oh, I see. Okay.

GORDON: Yeah. But, but, like I said, I'm, as far as adjusting the heater and stuff and the air conditioner, I never thought about that when I was young, you know. And I never really read the book on it, so, you know, I was experimenting. But then later on, I learned, but it took a while, you know? But I didn't know how to turn the air conditioner on. I didn't know how to do nothing, but drive. 01:09:00Now, they see --the thing is, the instructors, these drive, --these instructors that, they say instructing a person how to drive a car? They should also teach them about air conditioning and everything else, you know? Because some people don't know that don't know nothing. You know, and they should tell, teach them that. I think they should. Where's the air condition at? Where, where you know.

MAYFIELD: Where things are in your car.

GORDON: Right. You know, but they never said nothing about that. So, when I was, what, eighteen, nineteen, whenever I got my first car, I didn't know a dadgum thing. And, and as far as putting oil in the car, I didn't know that either. I took the, --I had a, --when I, later on I bought another car. I remember going to, --I was stationed in, this going be funny. You're going to say, "Ooh how stupid were you?" (laughs) But anyway, what happened, I was stationed in Fort 01:10:00Carson, Colorado. And I went all the way to Fort Carson, Colorado. Oh, okay. I drove the car up there. I had gas, I put gas in it. I put gas in it, but.

MAYFIELD: How much was gas?

GORDON: Oh, about thirty cents, so about thirty cents a gallon. Or it might have been less than that. It might have been fifteen. Well, I know when it was fifteen cents a gallon. But anyway, what happened, I'm going all the way to Colorado, and I drove over there. I, --hey, I was smart enough to drive there, but the thing I'm looking at is, that the car started acting funny. And you know, I didn't know you put oil in the dadgum thing. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Oh my gosh. Uh oh.

GORDON: That's how bad I was. I didn't know where to put oil in the car. I just 01:11:00drove it and drove it. No. Wow.

MAYFIELD: It takes experience.

GORDON: Yeah, it do. And you know what? And also takes reading a book, you know. Just like I said, even the people that sold you the car, they didn't even tell you nothing about the dadgum book, you know? You got a book in your car, but you don't even read it. I look back at that, I, "How stupid was I?" Oh gosh. You know. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: You changed.

GORDON: Oh, yeah.

MAYFIELD: You grew from it.

GORDON: Oh, yeah. Well, that, you know, that little stick aside the head. It made me do that. I know it had to be that stick. Because I, you know, I just, --that lick aside the head and I think it slowed me down, period. You know? And I learned though later, you know? Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: When did your family get a television set?

GORDON: Oh, they, ooh, they got a television said after I think, --after I moved 01:12:00out, basically. We used to, --I used to go next door and watch my cousin's television. Used to go over there. But I know they was tired looking at me, you know. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Your cousins lived next door?

GORDON: They lived next door to me. And I know they was tired of looking at me going over there. (laughs) And I also, one of my teachers, I went over her house, Ms. Ricks. I remember going over her house watching TV too. And I said, "Guys", I said, -- but I need to probably slow this down, because I didn't want to do that, you know? And my, --she had her daughter that was going to school almost my age, you know. And I know they didn't like us coming over there all the time, because, you know, a lot of the kids would go over there to look, watch TV.

MAYFIELD: Oh, what about shopping? Where did you shop?

GORDON: Uh, shop at Old Pick & Pack and Pic & Pay, you know. Except for that one 01:13:00day when I went over there and packed it out. (laughs) I remember coming home, you know, with my brother and sisters. And we came home and there was nothing to eat at the house. And I, I said, "Well, hey, I got money. I'm going to go to the store and get some food." Now, I had no money. I went on over there. I shopped, all right. (laughs) I went and got me a bag and went through the, --went walking through the place. Got me some lunch meat, went to the pressed ham, ah cinnamon rolls, mayonnaise, bread. And I, what else? I think, I don't remember everything, but I took all that stuff and walked out of the store 01:14:00with it in a bag, you know? And nobody never caught me.

MAYFIELD: Wow.

GORDON: Yeah. But next time, I got caught, because I was doing it, just see if I can get away with it. Yeah, I remember that very well. But I was a young kid. I'm thirteen, what, twelve, thirteen years old, so they couldn't do much with me, you know? (Ed. Note: Gordon states he never stole again).

MAYFIELD: Would you guys eat together as a family ---------(?)(?)--

GORDON: --Yes. Oh yes. And then the thing about that role was that you can't, I mean, you have to sit down at that table and one person would say grace, say grace. And we had to all be there, you know? We had a certain time to eat, and if it was for five or six o'clock, you had to be there. And there was nobody going to be late, you know? And they would say grace and we'd all take our 01:15:00seats, and my daddy or mama would say grace for us. And, but they, but they, --one thing I think about is that when we had chicken, well, my daddy would get the breast. He always got the breast and the, rear end. You know what I'm talking about? The rear end of the chicken? Yeah. Because he liked that back. I wouldn't, I didn't want it no way. I wanted that breast that he had, but I never could get it, because he was there to get it. And we had to eat the thigh and the, uh--

MAYFIELD: The leg?

GORDON: The leg, you know, I, --which I didn't like. But just like right now, I like the breast and the wings, you know. That's what I like, on the chicken, you know. But anyway, they had a certain way, we had to do things because Mama 01:16:00always tell me, "You don't touch that. That's Roberts." You know, I remember that. "No, now that's your daddy's", you know. I remember all that. He's, he sent me to the store. I remember when I'd go down and Ms. Clara's down there by the church house, and he sent me to the church. I mean, not the church house, but Ms. Clara's to get some pressed ham, because he had, he always took the pressed ham to work, you know.

MAYFIELD: Ms. Clara's?

GORDON: Ms. Clara's, right.

MAYFIELD: It was a store?

GORDON: Yes, the store, right?

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: I'd go there, and I'd go down there, and I'd run down there and run back. He always said I was the fastest when it came to, you know, going and getting the food. So, I always, I was, I always was happy about that. So, I would run, run down there and get that lunch meat and run right back.

MAYFIELD: Did you feel welcome when you went to the stores?

GORDON: Oh, yes. Ms. Clara's? Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: Or Pick and Pick and--

GORDON: Pick and Pay. I don't really know I, well actually, no, I didn't pay too much attention there because I was young. But I know they was watching us. You know, when I go in the store, they was always watching us. We had, --well Larry mentioned that to me the other day. We had a football team. When I was on a football team, me, Jimmy B. Farris and a lot of more, we'd go to football. But before we'd go to a football practice, we'd stop over there at that Pick and Pay, was it Pick and Pay? Pic & Pac. Pic & Pac. Pic & Pac. And we'd shop in there before we go. What we shopping, shoplifting, I guess you can say. We, we'd all get some orange juice. They had a little small orange juice. We used to take it and drink it on the way out. Open it up and drink it in the store. You know that, boy, we was wild. I look back at that, I said, "Gosh." And 01:18:00we'd drink it before we go to football practice over there. Right across the street from there.

MAYFIELD: How safe was your neighborhood? Did you leave your doors unlocked?

GORDON: No. (laughs) No way. I leave my doors unlocked now. I do, you know, I go to bed, and I don't even worry about, you know, nothing like that, you know. But I locked my doors now anyway. But you know, I realized that back in the day, it was not safe. It was not safe to leave your doors unlocked because we had a lot of--

MAYFIELD: What year do you think that was? Like, where you felt that it wasn't safe to lock your doors?

GORDON: I figure around about fifties and sixties.

MAYFIELD: It's because you're living in the Projects?

GORDON: Yeah. Right.

MAYFIELD: Okay. So, it was unsafe to lock your doors because you're living in the Projects.

GORDON: Yes. Yeah. Right. It is unsafe. You better lock it. Better lock your door, you know. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: What about disasters? You said, you mention, --you remember a little bit about the 1947 disaster.

GORDON: Oh, I was, uh, three years old. I couldn't remember very much, but I remember getting, hit aside the head with, um, --I still got a scar here on my, on my earlobe where I got hit with a piece of metal, I guess, or something. Some debris, you know, from the explosion. And I guess, can't, remember a whole bunch about it. But I remember going to La Marque to stay with my daddy's brother, which was my Uncle Java. His name is, they call him Java. That's his name. Was Java. That's a name. Huh? (laughs) J-A-V-A, Java. That's what it was. And went there and we stayed with him. And they, we ate crawfish, you know. And it was really good back in the day. It was, you know. And I always wanted some more of that stuff, but I never could find out how to fix it. And, and I never 01:20:00did ask nobody how to fix it, which I should have probably asked them.

MAYFIELD: What about, uh, Carla? I know, were you here for Carla?

GORDON: Oh, yeah, sure was. Oh, I remember going, I remember going, uh, and taking a snake out of some lady's house. I went to her house, and she had a snake in her garage, and she wanted me to get it, you know. I went in there and got it.

MAYFIELD: How did that hurricane affect your community?

GORDON: Oh.

MAYFIELD: Did it flood your community?

GORDON: It flooded up and had tore the tops off of the houses, you know. And that was in the Projects still, see. And it took the tops off. And then, we had, --I worked on a barrel boat.

MAYFIELD: A what?

GORDON: I worked on the barrels. They had a, something called the barrels in Texas City at that time. I went out there and I, we was in school, but school 01:21:00hadn't opened up, --back up again. And that was in 1961, with Carla. So, I went over there. I went over there, and I worked over there with the barrels for about three weeks. And that's how I got my clothes. I got my clothes, you know, my--

MAYFIELD: You mean the barrels that were rolling around? You were moving the barrels that had been rolling around the water?

GORDON: Yes.

MAYFIELD: Okay.

GORDON: Yeah, we had to stack them back up. They was empty barrels, you know? It wasn't nothing in them, you know, but we had to stack them back up and, so we put them back there. Anyway, I worked there now and got my, --that's how I got my school clothes that year. My mom didn't have to pay for no school clothes that year. I, you know--

MAYFIELD: You got money from cleaning up the barrels after the hurricane?

GORDON: Right, and I got, I made a hundred and something dollars a week, you know, just doing barrels, so, wow. Hey, I was happy because that was a lot of money back in the days, you know.

MAYFIELD: How many weeks did you have to do it?

GORDON: I was there for three weeks and, --but I took sick. I remember taking sick. I had a, I was just a, a heaving. You know what I'm talking about now? And my mom was looking at me and said, "Oh boy, you what? You're sick, huh?" I said, yeah. She said, "Well, I guess you might need to leave that job." I said, "No, I'm going to stick it out until we go back to school, you know?" So, that's what I did, you know.

MAYFIELD: What about voting? When did you first vote? Did you, --were you in Texas City when you first voted?

GORDON: Yes, I was.

MAYFIELD: And do you remember anything about the voting process in Texas City or the people who were involved in the voting?

GORDON: I can tell you this, that we was all told to go vote. And they required and told us we need to go vote. All of us.

MAYFIELD: Who told you?

GORDON: We had a Johnnie, a guy named Johnnie Henderson. He was one of the leaders here in our neighborhood, and he was trying to get everybody to go vote. So, he would always talking to all of us. "Go vote." They say, you can't say you don't have, I mean, if you don't vote, you ain't got no reason to complain, you know.

MAYFIELD: Who would be the important African American figures in Texas City who were involved in the civil rights movement?

GORDON: Johnnie Henderson, and, uh, he was the main one. And then, we had, what's that boy, what's the guy name? Cunningham is another guy named, I can't remember his first name, but it, Mr. Cunningham. Those are, those were the guys that done it. They, they were the ones that always getting us together and 01:24:00having meetings and stuff and talking. But I was a young kid. I remember when I had to go sit in on the Rainbow Cafe, you know, over here, it was on Sixth Street. Yeah. We, I'd go there and sit down in the counter, you know, to eat.

MAYFIELD: You had a sit-in?

GORDON: Mm-hmm. I went to sit in--

MAYFIELD: At Rainbow Cafe by yourself or were there other kids?

GORDON: No, me and some more people.

MAYFIELD: Was Johnnie Henderson there as well?

GORDON: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Were you in high school at the time?

GORDON: Yeah.

MAYFIELD: So, he pulled you out of school?

GORDON: No, we, no, this would be after school.

MAYFIELD: Okay. So, after school, he took you over to Rainbow Cafe and you guys sit in, right? Did you get served?

GORDON: Yeah, we got served. Not at first, you know, not at first, but later on we got served.

MAYFIELD: What year was that?

GORDON: Ooh, that was back in 1963, '61. Naw, '61. '61. I said '61, '60, '61.

MAYFIELD: What memory do you have in relation to the civil rights movement in Texas City?

GORDON: Well, I just remember going in, sitting in places, you know, like the Showboat and then, Rainbow Cafe. Going places that they denied us. You know, I forgot all of them. We did a lot of stuff, even the Showboat. Yeah.

MAYFIELD: What did you do at the Showboat?

GORDON: Well, (laughs) you know, we do a lot of crazy stuff. I mean, to be honest with you, I mean, hollering and stuff kind of make them, you know. We'd mess up the movies if they didn't want to let us come in there and be peaceful, you know. Be shouting out loud and, you know, they couldn't enjoy the movie, you 01:26:00know. Which was stupid. I said, "We going to disrupt for everybody", you know. And that's what we do, you know?

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: What about the NAACP? Were you active in the community? In the NAACP?

GORDON: Yes. I'm, I'm active even right now.

MAYFIELD: When were you first active in the NAACP?

GORDON: I was a young kid, you know. I was probably about seventeen, and I've been in it since. I'm a lifetime member.

MAYFIELD: What did you do at seventeen and being part of that?

GORDON: Talking to people. Talking to the youngsters. Trying to make the youngsters to do their part too, as well.

MAYFIELD: You felt compelled to talk to younger kids?

GORDON: Yes. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: By being part of the NAACP.

GORDON: Right? Right. Mm-hmm.

MAYFIELD: Did you notice that if churches played a role?

GORDON: Churches played a big role? Because that's where we, that's where we mostly had everything, you know, I mean, all the information and everything, you know, was given out. That's why, you know, that's why I say even the churches 01:27:00right nowadays played the same, you know?

MAYFIELD: What about women? Did you see the, the role of women as a important role through--

GORDON: Oh yeah, definitely.

MAYFIELD: --the civil rights movement.

GORDON: Definitely. Because even right now, today, you know, they're important. See, because women can get away with a lot of things more than the men can. And that's why they use them more. I mean, to be honest with you, just like Rosa Parks when she got on the bus. Now, if a Black man had done that same thing, you know what would've happened? (laughs) He'd been beaten and everything else. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: What about when Martin Luther King passed away? Do you remember where you were?

GORDON: I remember crying about that. You know, I remember crying about Martin Luther King getting shot. Uh-uh, I remember that. You know, that's one of the 01:28:00things that we thought that slowed down progress, you know? And he was, and I mean he was the most important person as far as we concerned, you know, back in that day. To us. He was like our president, you know. (laughs) And everything that he said, you know, would go.

MAYFIELD: He stood for your rights, so.

GORDON: Right. For our rights. He was very into, yeah, --very much loved too, you know, for that same thing. Because we needed him, you know, to do things that he done. He took big chances, you know?

MAYFIELD: Yeah. He took the ultimate chance.

GORDON: Oh yeah, he did. And then he paid for it in the end, you know.

MAYFIELD: Well, we're at the end of our interview, actually. It went by pretty quickly. Is there anything else that you would like to share before we end our 01:29:00interview? That you'd like to share or maybe a memory that you, --something that we haven't touched upon that you'd like to talk about?

GORDON: I can't remember anything. You know, I'm having, like I tell you, I have a short term memory problem. And I don't know how long it would take me for to come up with something. But I thought it was very, uh, --it was like a therapy for me in a sense because some of the things touched me, you know. And I sort of enjoyed it. And like, --I guess I needed therapy, too. Some of the things that came up was sort of--

MAYFIELD: You needed your own therapy.

GORDON: Right, that's what I'm saying. It sort of touched me a little bit, you know, more than I thought it would, you know. I remember all those things that 01:30:00happened back in the day. It brought up some memories and even brought up some memories in the military, you know? I mean, yeah. And that's touchy. Some of them I won't even discuss. (laughs)

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm.

GORDON: You know what I mean?

MAYFIELD: Right.

GORDON: Yeah. You know? So, let's be honest with you.

MAYFIELD: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GORDON: Yeah. Because everything you don't talk about, you need to let, --need some, probably, at least let it out, you know.

MAYFIELD: Well, I want to thank you so much for taking part in our oral history project.

GORDON: Okay.

MAYFIELD: And we really appreciate your stories.

GORDON: Okay.

MAYFIELD: And thank you so much.

GORDON: All right. Thank you.

MAYFIELD: And then this concludes our oral history.

GORDON: All right.